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[The Gopher]

A few weeks ago I stumbled onto a petition that called for Sesame Street characters Bert and Ernie to unite in a same-sexed marriage. Even though I thought the idea was a novel approach to promoting LGBT rights and tolerance, I never really expected much to come from it. Bert and Ernie do have a classic homosexual undertone to their 40 year relationship, but the idea didn't strike me as the type that would sit well with very many people. I shrugged it off and didn't think much about it.

Days later, the national media began to cover the story, inciting some intelligent debate for and against the petition, but mostly it provided a chance for parents and conservatives to express their outrage that the homosexuals were attempting to corrupt their children.

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Complaining about a gay boat protest upstaging her husband's retirement party
Lucille Bluth: Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!

I tried to ignore it. I really tried. But as things have a way of doing, the subject popped up on my Facebook feed. This is the status message that sucked me into a fairly heated debate with a friend and perfect strangers:

OMG!! I just heard on the news that Bert & Ernie were supposed to 'marry' in a same sex union. I am so discusted right now I could puke. Really??? On a freaking cartoon designed to help 2-4 yr olds learn their letters and numbers?

Her live-in boyfriend and father of her unborn child (out of wedlock, I may add!) chimed in with this moments later:

LORD i hope u come quickly. Save my children from this preverse immoral and unclean world. That is jus going too far!

After a few more comments from others, Tiffany's back with this:

I'm open minded, but not that open minded...not for 2-4 yr olds.

More comments, all in agreement with Tiffany, followed by this:

there was a petition out there from some crazy man wanting to teach our 2 yr olds tolerance! But Thank God Sesame Street had the good head to not do it! They teach friendship....not tolerance of homosexuality!

...and that's what set me off.

Firstly, this was an idea made by a gay rights activist in support of tolerance - not by the creators of the show. It was never going to happen so there's no need to worry, your children are safe!

Secondly, I think everyone here is overreacting. We live in a world where gay teenagers and preteens are committing suicide every day because they're being bullied - because the parents of the bullies failed to teach tolerance... When taking that into consideration, I honestly don't think this would have been such a terrible thing.

Thirdly, I think it's despicable that we live in a world where people have to be 'tolerated' in the first place... Too me, the disgusting thing is some of the reactions I've read on this status, not the initial idea. Children are beginning to form an understanding of gender roles long before the age of two, and whether you realize it or not they're already being influenced by these stereotypes before they're even born. So to me, there's no soon of an age to make sure a child doesn't grow up to be a hateful bigot.

hmm...interesting...so you would be okay with explaining to a child of 4 why two male characters are marrying when (prosumably) this child has only seen male & females in a marriage bond?

I may teach my child to accepts people's differences and tolerate other people's decisions in their way of life but changing the way a cartoon has been viewed for 50 years just to satisfy a group of people seems to be going too far...what's next, Elmo's little sister getting impregnanted by Big Bird?

Yes, I would be OK with explaining to a child why two men or two women characters were getting married - I'd explain it the same way I'd explain any other type of marriage: They're in love, and when people love each other, they get married. It's not rocket science and children are a lot more open minded and capable of processing information than we give them credit for.

I hate that we hide behind the excuse of "Oh, we're protecting the children!" when really, the children can handle it - it's the parents that are stuck in their own narrow minded ways.

Oh man, and here's Beth again to really piss me off:

whats even more amazing to me is that the rate of teen suicide is up and there is not a single tv show that can be watched were homosexuality is not being showcased in one form or another! So lets then lower the age we are teaching our children that homosexuality is beautiful...cause evening tv and talk shows havent helped our teenagers....lets move it to sesame street! Next wil we say that beasteality is ok and let clifford and elizabeth marry??? Nice.... And tolerance is not of people...its of their choices and as long as your choices dont interfere with my childs development, then do what u want.

Tiffany, realizing I'm getting testy, comes back to explain that she's open-minded in regards to alternative lifestyles.

‎"Alternative lifestyles" expresses that you view our society as heteronormative, and that other behaviors are "deviant." In all actuality, there is no 'normal' in our culture because we're all different - from the way we dress, act, practice religion to acts of sexuality, health and eating habits and political beliefs. Likening homosexuality to sex with animals is an unnecessary stretch, and it's that kind of fearful thinking that makes living in a progressive society impossible. I wonder if people were this offended when African Americans were first included in television shows. I mean, after all, that likely pushed their 'agenda.'

Hiding behind an insincere mask of tolerance and religion while spewing vile that links gays to those who have sex with animals is an example of the hypocrisies throughout this debate. I don't expect to change anyone's mind but know that your worldview is not representative of everyone else's and that you're no more right than anyone else...

Charles compares my words to those of Satan himself:

Steven thats sounds like something Satan himself would say to try to smooth it all over. I know im right because i stand on the words of my Father in heaven. One day it will all come into the light. And in that day of judgement there will be great gnashing of teeth bc they heard the Word but choose not to follow it.

OK, because I disagree with everyone’s outrage over a suggestion that was NEVER going to happen in the first place, I’m speaking the words of Satan? That has to be one of the most outrageous things I’ve ever had the misfortune of hearing/reading during an argument… and at the very least, it goes to show that you can be as “tolerant” of other people as you’d like but at the very core of things, you’re still filled with hatred towards people you’re supposed to love.

There’s a Gandhi quote that seems really applicable right now: “I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

And how can you claim to be ‘right’ when Jesus Christ himself never once said a word about homosexuality? You do know that the Christian Bible has changed throughout history, right? Even if it originated as the word of God, man has influenced the way it reads as it’s been ‘translated’ (rewritten) several times throughout history.

Here are some fun facts from the Bible on homosexuality:

Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
Only six or seven of the Bible’s one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way – and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation, as it’s understood today.

“Even when we believe the Scriptures are ‘without error,’ it’s a risk to think our understanding is without error.”

And I’ll leave you with this – examples of Bible verses that no Christian follows in modern society…

DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.

DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

And those are just a few of the hundreds, if not thousands of passages that our culture conveniently ignores when thumping the Bible but yet we’re so adamant on the homosexual issue?

It’s a simple as this, in my opinion: Hatred of anyone, in this specific case, homosexuals, is not justifiable by Jesus Christ’s words or teachings. Christians who condemn this behavior while choosing to ignore or break many other laws of Christ – ya know, the ones he actually spoke about – are hypocrites and they’re the ones who should be fearing judgment day, not I.

And it goes on like this, until we all just kind of quit posting. I won't make you read anymore of it for the time being - this post is already 400 times longer than the average post here, but you get the picture from what's been shared.

So, now I want to turn the discussion to you - my peers and fellow WX posters. What did you guys make of this Sesame Street thing? Obviously it was never going to happen, but were you offended by the mere suggestion of promoting LGBT tolerance on a kid's show? In general, how do you feel on the subject of gay marriage and homosexuality?

I want to have an actual adult conversation here, so please make this a safe zone for expressing our opinions, even if your opinions are of unfavorable opinion. I've chatted with Hazzy about this and we both noted that we've touched upon the 'gay thing' a number of times over the years, but never really dug in. Refresh your memory here with a discussion of homosexuality and censorship, here with Illy's mock attempt to step out of the closet, and Gungrave and Blue Lightening's rage in the 'Angry Thread.'

So yeah...

Have at it. 

[gungrave17]

that homophobia i put was a long time ago, besides that was a joke i normally mention if a gay guy ask me out

[The Gopher]

that homophobia i put was a long time ago, besides that was a joke i normally mention if a gay guy ask me out

I'm aware, Gun, and I wasn't trying to link that to your opinions now, I was just linking to memorable threads in which we approached the topic. 

[Lawman]

This is pathetic!, they're fucking muppets!
some tool starting a silly petition is not newsworthy.
Regardless of how beloved these characters are, for 40 years they have been the "odd couple" of sesame street, and nobody ever suggested that the origina "Odd Couple" Jack lemmon and walter matthau were slipping it to each other
the pair are the typical comic duo the joker and the (no pun intended) straight man.
this is a joke, if anyone thinks this is serious clearly has the mental age of someone who should be still watching bert and ernie and their apparent "Sexual tension"
this has all the signs of being a typical, say something should be gay if you disagree you're homophobic.
the fact some rednecks gets all flustered is hilarious!, and the opinion of some bible thumping hick mean little to me or probably any of you

they're childrens tv characters, and anyway sesame street needs to sort out its homeless problem, Oscars been sleeping rough for years and all those selfish fucks just bitch at him for bein unhappy about it!

[The Headliner]

they're fucking muppets!

Who, Bert and Ernie or Gopher's friends?

Seriously Gopher, you're far more tolerant than I for being able to put up with ignorant tools like that in your life. I've deleted people from Facebook for less willful stupidity than that.

[Illusion]

I often wonder if gay jokes are actually funny these days.  But then the moment passes and I make a hilarious one about H-Man.

I didn't read all of your post because I'm lazy but I thought the Bert/Ernie petition was silly and a joke until I read people seriously wanting it.  I haven't watched Sesame Street since forever but I'm pretty sure it didn't have any sexual stuff in it so why sexualise it at all.  Maybe they could have Homer and Ned Flanders have a secret love affair too right?  They've always been dancing around each other.

Teaching them about it should be done anyway, a lot of things should be taught to them and isn't, I'm making a list at the moment because the kids and people around here are disrespectful assholes that are pissing me off just about every day.

And that thread was hilarious.

[Hazzy]

I think the Bert and Ernie thing is just exactly what Gopher said. Someone suggested it as a whim or a statement he wanted to make, and homophobic people got hold of it and it was suddenly "Sesame Street are gunna make Bert and Ernie gay!". Which then forces more sane people to start arguing "why shouldn't they be gay" and it becomes a whole pointless argument. Well, not pointless, because it still looks at the whole issue and you can see what people really think like your friends on Facebook, but over a topic that was never gunna happen in the first place.

It always really annoys me too when people say "they shouldn't be teaching this to KIDS!" It's like Gopher said, kids would be completely fine with the idea, their extremely tolerant. It's the parents that don't like the idea and then pass this on to their kids who become intolerant adults. I always see it in the news where the people that decide what's going to be on exam papers or in exercise books etc. have decided that there should be more black people featured in questions or same sex unions or whatever. And there's this big fuss kicked up by parents that are fine with the idea but they don't want to corrupt their children's young minds. They say stuff like "what has sexuality got to do with a math's question!?" Well it already deals with sexuality when it mentions straight couples in a question, like "a man and his wife are buying a house, work out the interest.." or whatever. There should be no problem with that being "a man and his husband" or "a girl and her girlfriend". The good thing about bigots is that generally none of their arguments make any sense. The bad thing is, bigots don't recognise that themselves and won't listen to arguments that DO make sense.

When I was making my student film for my final year, it was on the topic of homosexuality - a student coming out to his friend. Cliche I know, but oh well. And my group was all really up for the idea and thought it'd be great to expose the homophobia in society and everything. Meanwhile the guy is saying things like "so the gay guy's character, he'll need to dress well because they're always fashionable aren't they" completely seriously. And then the girl in my group would say "I'm fine with gay people, but I mean, if I was walking through the park one day with my future kids, and there was two men kissing, I'd be a bit disgusted and take my children away..." and another group happened to show a clip from a film that had Colin Firth kissing another man (their topic wasn't homosexuality, that film just for whatever reason highlighted a point they wanted to make in a presentation), and she turned to me while they were kissing with a look that said "oh my god...gross!" So this kind of thing is happening around me, and seems pretty widespread, even in a university where admittedly gay people are generally more accepted. And then I explain the idea to my teacher and she says "it's just not relevent, being gay isn't an issue anymore". Well, I beg to differ. And differ I did. Not to her face, although I did tell her I think it still is, maybe in a more subtle way generally, but it's still an issue. I ended up changing the film idea to reflect the argument with the teacher, so instead of meeting obstacles to his sexuality externally, his problems were all internal fears that stopped him from telling people he was gay. If I was on my mac I could post the 'essay' I wrote to my film group explaining why I think homosexuality is still an issue - Actually I could probably find it on Facebook so maybe I'll post it later.


EDIT

Ok here it is:

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We originally came up with the idea (well, I did) of a guy our age struggling with "coming out", but the teacher and the group seemed to think that it would be better to deal with an older guy struggling because it's not an issue for young people anymore, and I sent them this message on facebook:

Also there's something I've been thinking about. I don't think our narrative, or the reason to choose an older guy, should be about how nowadays its easy to come out and accepted in society and back in the 60s homosexuality was considered a sin etc. That might be true, but I think the decision to come out, whether today or in the previous generation, can be just as hard for the person involved. I got a bit annoyed when Sarah [my teacher] kind of dismissed the idea of a teenager coming out in a film because its accepted in today's society, because there are a whole lot of considerations, still, for someone coming out today.

For one thing, the environment you grow up in is still heavily influenced by the previous generation - adults that got taught homosexuality is a sin in their childhood now have teenage children struggling with their sexuality. So it's not like it got to the 70s or 80s and suddenly a switch was hit and the whole world turned pink.

Also if you go to any school today, there's almost 100% going to be people getting called 'fags' or 'gayboys' or whatever, just among friends, not meaning anything literally by it most of the time. It's just a word. But if you were trying to understand your own sexuality, and were constantly being called a fag for even trivial reasons by your friends, then you would probably get the idea that being gay is a bad thing. I mean my house mate calls me a fag all the time - he's never looked so happy than when I told him I was gunna try and be a vegetarian, joking that the next step is my coming out party etc. - and yet he'll also say that he has no problem with gay people. So it's not literally saying "you're gay and that's a bad thing", [is it Illy?] but it is a negative connotation, which could be powerful if you're contemplating 'coming out'.

And like the Guardian article I linked to a few messages ago says, the media paints a broad and stereotypical view of homosexuality. It's almost a downside of the society coming to terms with homosexuality that it put the whole issue on a pedestal. In the 60s or 70s they had huge gay pride marches which still go on today, which are all about being colourful and loud and vibrant. They're about saying "We're here, we're queer". And so coming out in today's society is almost like people assume it is now a part of your personality. Being gay isn't just attraction to the same gender now, it's seen as a part of who you are. It in some way defines your personality - which obviously isn't true. There's camp gay people, probably more so than there is camp straight people, but there are still camp straight people, and butch women, and feminine women etc. etc. Who you love has nothing to do with who you are as a person, which is why I have a problem with the whole gay 'pride' thing, because I don't think it's something you need to be proud of. It's definitely something you shouldn't feel ashamed of, but I don't think stretching that out into the opposite direction is really a good move. It almost highlights gay people as being somehow different.

So coming out today might be difficult in a more subtle way - you're not going to get thrown out of your house probably, and will always have people you can talk to, and being gay in the broad scheme of things in society, might mean very little (except in the law, where there's still pretty important inequalities) - but I think on a personal level it is still a really difficult and complicated thing to do. From peer pressure, family pressure, the lingering attitude that homosexuality is an issue, and not wanting people to see you differently after you 'come out' - they all add up to make coming out a really tough personal decision. Like the video of the politician guy telling gay teens to not give in to bullies etc. - the kids that killed themselves because of their sexuality obviously didn't agree with Sarah that being gay in today's society is trivial.

And woah...didn't mean that to be that long, I started out writing a paragraph and turned into all that crap. But basically what I'm thinking is that just because we're doing a film about a middle aged guy coming to terms with his sexuality, the underlying message shouldn't be about him finally being able to come out now that society has changed, because to a lot of people who still feel they can't come out for whatever reason, it hasn't changed all too much. In other words, I don't think we should trivialise how tough it still is for someone to find the courage to not live the more convenient heterosexual lie.

And from this kind of thinking (although it went on for another few weeks of back and forth between the group and me and the teacher and me), is where I came up with the idea of making the film more personal. The gay guy in the film has all these fears that I talk about in that message, and it's a better film because of it, so I should probably thank my teacher and group for pushing me on it, but it still shows it's an issue today. Maybe generally it's not as extreme (although Gopher's friend list on facebook might say otherwise) but it's there.

[Ethan]

I subscribe to the thought that my father always told me about intolerance. "Cory, What you hate will end up in your family. So why hate anyone because you are to support and love your family" That's how I've lived my life.

If Bert and Ernie were a gay couple...Meh, it doesn't change how many numbers and colors they know. It doesn't change the idea of shapes or spelling. Sex isn't even an issue last I checked on those shows.

Now onto intolerance, some people are tolerant of things that they don't have to see. Society in America is a sexist one first off, because we all go awesome when two women are swapping spit, but if two dudes do it we are disgusted. Personally I am not, I'm uncomfortable as I do not like PDA. As we get older and each generation moves on that will fade. It will never go away, but it will fade.

[Lawman]

The irony is the people who are most homophobic are probably the ones who'd try it first, if they percieved they couldn't get caught!

[The Gopher]

There's a Bill Maher quote that I really love, and I think that it applies to me at times:

"Don't get so tolerant that you tolerate intolerance."

I think TV has already gone a long way towards making homosexuality less of a taboo... for me, it started with the Wire and Six Feet Under. In the Wire, Omar is a gay black male that is primarily a badass the robs drug dealers and he just so happens to be gay. There's no cliches there; he's not struggling with his sexuality whatsoever. With Six Feet Under, David and Keith proved that two people of the same sex can be in love and can be well-rounded characters. Hell, Alan Ball does it still with True Blood, which is insanely popular in America - the whole show is a metaphor for intolerance.

I do like the idea of gay characters on a kids show, but I agree that since Sesame Street isn't about marriage or couples, it shouldn't be something they're forced to push.

I dunno... as someone that has struggled with his own sexuality since being a teenager, I can say first hand that this sort of stuff helps in forming an understanding of why someone can be this way, and how to deal with it.

[El Jackal]

My view on this is pretty straight forward, Sesame Street is mainly about teaching young children to count and spell in a fun way. There would be nothing wrong with Bert and Ernie being in a same sex relationship, but there is absolutely no need to be thinking about changing a formula that has worked for 30-40 years by introducing same sex relationships.

So in short I see no problem with the idea, for instance being brought into focus on an entirely new show for children.. but I don't think it would be of much value to suddenly declare Bert and Ernie to be gay.

[The Headliner]

Didn't Big Bird already come out of the closet, or did I fall for some kind of hoax a few years ago?

[Purple Marauder]

[Fan]

The puppets kiss from time to time, don't they? Pretty sure Miss Piggy sluts her way up and down Sesame Street. Bert and Ernie can share a peck every once in a while as far as I'm concerned.

[The Gopher]

See, that's what I thought too. The producers of Sesame Street said in response to this that the muppets aren't sexualized, but I thought one couple on the show was married. I could be wrong, I don't think I've ever even seen the show, but if this is true then it sounds like an easy cop out.

There's been some talk about introducing two new characters - human characters - to the show in hopes of promoting this idea, although with all the backlash this petition brought I can't see it happening.

I just don't understand the thought process behind some of the people I was arguing with on that Facebook post - it isn't as if their kids are going to catch the gay from being exposed to it. There's also that pesky gay men are bad for children stereotype that could be battled with gays on kids shows; I can't tell you how many times I've heard straight male teachers being accused of being pedophiles if they teach elementary. Couldn't imagine what a gay male elementary teacher faces...