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[Hazzy]

I found this on the Daily Mail website, and tried to find it on a more liberal or open-minded/balanced website but couldn't, searching Google brought up a lot more conservative websites that were a lot harsher than the Daily Mail, so I'll just link to that one. But dunno how balanced and accurate it all is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Are-PC-parents-world-The-couple-raising-genderless-baby--protect-right-choice.html?ITO=1490

When Storm was born, the couple sent an email to the rest of their friends and family that stated: 'We've decided not to share Storm's sex for now — a tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm's lifetime (a more progressive place? ...).'

--

Friends cleverly accused the couple of taking away the newborn's right to choice by imposing their own ideology on the tiny baby.

And pretty much everyone they told (or, rather, refused to tell) was united in believing they were setting their children up for a lifetime of bullying.

--

But Mrs Witterick was defiant. 'When the baby comes out, even the people who love you the most and know you so intimately, the first question they ask is, ‘Is it a girl or a boy?’' she told the Star.

Her husband chimed in: 'If you really want to get to know someone, you don’t ask what’s between their legs.'

So what are your thoughts on this?

It's actually something I've thought about before, but never in this way. I've thought about how I don't want to have a girl and think "right, pink it is" and paint everything pink and buy her princess dresses and say how 'pretty' she is, or have a boy and buy trucks and guns and say how 'handsome' he is etc. I'm interested in the whole nature/nurture debate, and think that it is almost completely nurture. Society, relationships and outside influences define who we are as people. I think that's true with 'gender confused' people, who I see as just conforming to society's definition of who they should be, or gay people, or stubborn people, or happy people, or loving people, or vegetarians, etc. etc. Unlike Lady Gaga, I don't think we're "born this way". I don't think we have a choice in the matter because we're all victims to society's influence, but I don't think it's a part of our biology.

Something like girls using more of the left side of the brain (or maybe it's right, I forget) which allows them to multi-task and whatever, and boys using the other side which means they're better with logic and maths etc. I think that's because the brain adapts and develops as we grow up. If you didn't teach a child to speak, then by the time they're 5, the part of the brain responsible for speech would be pretty much dead. Like feral children raised by wolves or animals, when they're found at age 12 or whatever, their brain has already hardwired them to survive in the world they were living in, with wolves, in the forrest, walking on all fours etc. They weren't 'born that way' in the same way I don't think boys are born to be the stereotypical boy gender and girls aren't born to be girl gender. Gender is a social construct.

So I fully support these parents and what they're trying to do. Like I said, I've never thought about it in that way before, I guess because I've never been through it so haven't been constantly asked "is it a boy or a girl" as if that matters. It's taking it a step further. Not conforming yourself to gender roles when you're raising a kid is one thing, and hard enough in itself, because such subtle things can make a big difference in a developing brain. But to not disclose the sex of your baby to the outside world is gunna be really difficult - on another website someone commented on this story saying that they tried to ignore gender stereotypes as well, not going this far, but still not buying into the pink=girls/blue=boys stuff, but then the kid would go to school and the teacher would not let him play with other girls at break time, or play with the doll toys, and would encourage him to read boy books etc. So if that's the kind of attitudes they're going to be facing, even at a more subtle level dealing with a society that generally thinks girls should be girls and boys should be boys, then it's gunna be nearly impossible to keep this up.

But that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. Conforming would definitely be easier, but the easy option is rarely the option worth taking.

[Illusion]

I'm going to walk in on you playing with your doll house again aren't I? 

[Hazzy]

Exactly what I'm talking about. ^

[Illusion]

Seems pointless.  Obviously the kid is going to know what he/she is and unless they keep him/her at home to teach her/him (that's getting annoying) themselves it's going to have other influences as well as them anyway.  So even if they let it wear what it wants without the whole "that's for girls" or "that's for boys" then outside stuff is going to do it, the media, other kids etc.

I don't know what their point is, that just because society tells you something doesn't mean you have to conform to it?  Isn't that something that should be taught anyway?

Also for the record you're the first person to start talking about why people shouldn't eat meat or why certain beliefs are wrong etc.

[Hazzy]

That's what a lot of comments are saying on Daily Mail, but the point isn't that they're keeping his sex from himself (or herself) - the kid knows they have either a penis or a *snigger* VAGINA, but they don't want to say, tell the school that they're a girl or boy because they don't see how its relevant. They don't see how having a penis or VAGINA is any concern of government or businesses or neighbours etc.

Also for the record you're the first person to start talking about why people shouldn't eat meat or why certain beliefs are wrong etc.

Huh?

[El Jackal]

they don't want to say, tell the school that they're a girl or boy because they don't see how its relevant. They don't see how having a penis or VAGINA is any concern of government or businesses or neighbours etc.

Well for one thing they need to know for PE classes so that the child can be put into the appropriate groups.

I can't say whether I think I'm for or against this, but it just sounds to me like the parents are being pretentious douche bags and forcing their own views onto a child which cannot yet decide for itself. Which is something I don't like. It's the same as forcing a child to attend church in my opinion, it's like pushing them into something before they know any different. Which is only gonna cause them a shit load of problems in later life. The parents need to realise that the world is how it is for a reason and one baby growing up confused is not going to change anything.

I also don't agree on the whole pink/blue thing, but generally girls will like pink and boys will like darker colours anyway. My Mother did not shower my little sister in pink, but it's definitely her favourite colour now anyway, through her own choice.

[Illusion]

But why?  In 12 years or so they'll know anyway.  If it's a boy then letting people know it's a boy and still teaching him the same thing isn't going to make a difference.  By hiding it it just draws more attention, possibly negative attention.

And I already said, unless its completely cut off from the rest of the world it's going to have other influences other than them when it watches TV, reads a magazine, puts on the radio, talks to next door etc.  It's not like they can protect it from all that in Canada.  And if they did cut it off so it's only them that are influencing then it's going to do damage.  I doubt it's going to grow up in a regular school and choose to wear a dress when it's a boy because of what its been taught.  The other influences are going to come into play.

The lesson and what they're trying to do would be still the same except they wouldn't be making it a big deal.  Right away hiding his gender says "WE'RE DIFFERENT" which could make people around them react badly and ruin their goal.

[Hazzy]

Well for one thing they need to know for PE classes so that the child can be put into the appropriate groups.

What do you mean by groups? As in separate lessons for girls and boys? Because it's that kind of thing they're fighting by not telling anybody his sex.

I can't say whether I think I'm for or against this, but it just sounds to me like the parents are being pretentious douche bags and forcing their own views onto a child which cannot yet decide for itself. Which is something I don't like. It's the same as forcing a child to attend church in my opinion, it's like pushing them into something before they know any different. Which is only gonna cause them a shit load of problems in later life. The parents need to realise that the world is how it is for a reason and one baby growing up confused is not going to change anything.

Sounds like you're quite strongly against it... I've seen that a lot though in comments. How are they pushing their views onto their child like religion? As parents, they've decided not to tell other people whether their baby is a boy or a girl. When people ask his sex, they don't tell them. The child doesn't have his penis taped up so he doesn't know he's a boy, or a strap-on so they can pretend she's a boy. The kid is free to grow up and make it's own decisions - they choose their own haircuts and pick out their own clothes and toys. Again, if you take a step further back from that then they're still under the influence of something, whether it's their parents and trying to please them or their friends or trying to be different or TV or whatever. But it's as free as you can be I think.

And I don't believe at all in the attitude that 'the world is as it is so we should just accept it'. I mean come on, not long ago women couldn't work in good jobs, or work at all. Was the world how it was then for a reason? Were those first women to take a stand pretentious and should have quit because it wasn't going to change anything? The world is dumb, stupid decisions are made all the time, and people accept it because it's just how things are, instead of thinking how dumb some things really are. Until a comedian says it on stage and makes everyone think "ha, oh yeah, never thought about it like that". It's why comedy is so important - it's what makes us human - the ability to look at things and think "that's not how it SHOULD be". But anyway, I'm going off on a tangent.

I also don't agree on the whole pink/blue thing, but generally girls will like pink and boys will like darker colours anyway. My Mother did not shower my little sister in pink, but it's definitely her favourite colour now anyway, through her own choice.

I don't think generally girls will like pink, not naturally anyway. I think again its subtle ways we treat boys and girls differently. A dress will have pink sparkles on it. A kindly grandparent will give a girl a pretty pink dress. Society will say "pretty in pink" and girls are called "pretty" not handsome or whatever. Parents buy films about princesses where the princess wears pink, and girls are called princesses. I think there's countless influences in society that could make girls develop a liking for pink. But something like 100 years ago, the colours were the other way round. Pink was for girls, because it was closer to red and blood and considered more manly apparently, and blue was for girls because it was considered paler and fairer.

I doubt it's going to grow up in a regular school and choose to wear a dress when it's a boy because of what its been taught.  The other influences are going to come into play.

Yeah that's why I said it was almost impossible to do. A developing brain is influenced by so many little things that you can't escape it, and you probably wouldn't want to. They have two other sons, the article says I think that one bought a dress the other day because he liked the 'frills' at the bottom or something, and one has pigtails in his hair. The teach their kids that they can be whoever they want and make their own decisions, and they will always have the unconditional love of their parents supporting them. The parents shouldn't make decisions based on whether or not the kid might get bullied or not. I saw so many comments saying it's gunna lead to bullying and why would their parent want to put their kid through potential bullying. But why should they or anyone give in to bullies? If we all decide to live the way bullies find acceptable and avoiding being different then the bullies win and nobody benefits.

[El Jackal]

What do you mean by groups? As in separate lessons for girls and boys? Because it's that kind of thing they're fighting by not telling anybody his sex.

For this I meant that the schools have to separate sexes for legal reasons these days, if the child is a girl for example but has chosen to have a boys haircut or dress as a boy then the teachers wouldn't know any different, but this could cause endless problems from other parents, legal issues or whatever.

Sounds like you're quite strongly against it... I've seen that a lot though in comments. How are they pushing their views onto their child like religion? As parents, they've decided not to tell other people whether their baby is a boy or a girl. When people ask his sex, they don't tell them. The child doesn't have his penis taped up so he doesn't know he's a boy, or a strap-on so they can pretend she's a boy. The kid is free to grow up and make it's own decisions - they choose their own haircuts and pick out their own clothes and toys. Again, if you take a step further back from that then they're still under the influence of something, whether it's their parents and trying to please them or their friends or trying to be different or TV or whatever. But it's as free as you can be I think.

And I don't believe at all in the attitude that 'the world is as it is so we should just accept it'. I mean come on, not long ago women couldn't work in good jobs, or work at all. Was the world how it was then for a reason? Were those first women to take a stand pretentious and should have quit because it wasn't going to change anything? The world is dumb, stupid decisions are made all the time, and people accept it because it's just how things are, instead of thinking how dumb some things really are. Until a comedian says it on stage and makes everyone think "ha, oh yeah, never thought about it like that". It's why comedy is so important - it's what makes us human - the ability to look at things and think "that's not how it SHOULD be". But anyway, I'm going off on a tangent.

Whether the child is free to make it's own choices or not, they will still face problems growing up because of this.. and this will ultimately be the parents fault.

You're comparing two completely different things here, in the modern society women aren't oppressed anymore. Sure they might be in secret still, or even in public occasionally.. but when they are, the culprits are normally punished.

What it sounds like to me is that the parents will be depriving the child of a normal childhood. You can't deny the child will get picked on for at least the first 15 years of it's life depending on the choices they decide to make, that's a pretty big risk to take as a parent. To potentially put your child through a childhood of torment just because of your own views.

I don't think generally girls will like pink, not naturally anyway. I think again its subtle ways we treat boys and girls differently. A dress will have pink sparkles on it. A kindly grandparent will give a girl a pretty pink dress. Society will say "pretty in pink" and girls are called "pretty" not handsome or whatever. Parents buy films about princesses where the princess wears pink, and girls are called princesses. I think there's countless influences in society that could make girls develop a liking for pink. But something like 100 years ago, the colours were the other way round. Pink was for girls, because it was closer to red and blood and considered more manly apparently, and blue was for girls because it was considered paler and fairer.

I'm not saying a girl will naturally prefer pink, but the media will almost certainly influence here into liking certain colours, certain things.. and this cannot be avoided unless the parents segregate their child completely. Girls will generally like pink because of the media/society, and that is not going to change anytime soon. You may say that these parents are taking the first step towards changing this, but I think it's too heavy a burden to be placed on a child who could potentially have a shit childhood because of their ideals.

[Hazzy]

I'd rather grow up knowing I'm loved unconditionally by my parents and supported in whatever I do, than to be molded into something that society accepts more widely to avoid bullying, because that's what 'society is like' or because its 'normal'.

[El Jackal]

I'd rather grow up knowing I'm loved unconditionally by my parents and supported in whatever I do, than to be molded into something that society accepts more widely to avoid bullying, because that's what 'society is like' or because its 'normal'.

That is fine, but you tell me what is wrong with specifically being a girl or being a boy? And why there is a need for ambiguity in the first place?

[Hazzy]

Ask that question to people like Cher's son or trangender people that feel like they have to cut up their body to fit into society's idea of a girl or boy. Why do they feel the need to cut off bits of their body to fit in?

I think it's easy to say it doesn't matter if you're a boy that likes mostly boy things or a girl that likes mostly girl things, in the same way it's easy to say being gay isn't an issue anymore if you don't have any experience of it still being an issue. But genderism still is around, and I don't think you can just stop now that most get equal pay. You have to keep fighting the causes of problems, not just putting a band aid over things like equal pay and saying 'there, that'll do'.

[Illusion]

Probably a bit deeper than just because he liked things associated with boys.

[El Jackal]

If a parent truly loves their child then they will let their child play with whatever toys they want, have whatever haircut they want, dress however they want whilst also teaching them about who they are as a gender. To not teach them about who they are physically from the start is the same as not letting them express who they are mentally.

[The Headliner]

I really like this idea. In fact why stop at the sex of the child? When I have a son-daughter of my own I'm going to cover him-her from head to toe and not tell anyone what color he-she is. And then maybe with my next offspring, I'll break down even more barriers and refuse to confirm their species. Why limit my children to these predefined boundaries? Remove all physical characteristics and with a bit of luck, I'll live to see my first grandchild enjoying its freedom as a brain in a jar.