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[Hazzy]

Anyone seen it? And what did you think if you have?

Me and Illy are arguing about whether you should "sympathise" with Alex, the lead character. Illy was pretty much cheering the people on that tortured the "reformed" Alex, because he'd tortured them first. Like it was justice, them getting revenge so it was ok. But I sympathised with him, just like I sympathised with the people he raped and murdered.

Whichever side of the fence you're on, none of their actions were good. If you look at what the people did to Alex to get revenge after the "cure", look at them acts on their own (like the guy torturing Alex with the music that lead to him trying to kill himself) then its wrong. You'd think he was sick and twisted. And he is, probably in part because of what Alex did to him and his wife. But Illy was sympathising with him because in the movie he got hurt first so him getting revenge was ok.

But anyway, i've lost track. My point is, Alex was sick, sick in the head is still sick, and needed help, not torture and revenge and whatever.

I think the point of this film is for you to question your morals. And I think if you side with the people torturing Alex, like an eye for an eye, giving him a taste of his own medicine...then you must also agree with the death penalty. But what stops the torturers, or people that support them, being just as bad as Alex, who you apparently want to see tortured.

[Illusion]

I still don't see the guy as sick.  Well he is but not in the sense that you say.  It's not an illness he had, he was just a twisted fuck.  He was obviously an intelligent guy that knew what he was doing from what you could see from his narration, and throughout the film he never showed any remorse for what he did.

I think they were justified in doing that "cure" simply because it made him unable to rape, or kill again.  It might be inhumane and you described it as torturing him, but the guy was messed up, and if they didn't do that whose to say he wouldn't have a longer list of victims when he was released?  He was dangerous, so disabling him from doing that is justified I think.  They even let him go free instead of serving his full sentence.  If anything I believe he got off lucky.

Also I put myself in to the position of the guy whose wife he raped.  If somebody beat me down with a gang, and then raped my wife in front of me I would look for revenge too.  I don't understand how you can sympathise with him for that guy doing that.  He raped his wife and took away her rights, and he just repaid the favour.  He was a monster, so even though it did lead to him attempting to kill himself I don't feel sympathy towards him.  Good riddance.

But on the other hand I don't agree with hiring his old friends, and them doing what they did.  They were just as fucked up and guilty as he was.  But the old guy in the wheel chair, and them disabling him from having sex or committing violence, totally justified.  It was with good intentions, not sick pleasure which is what he did to his victims.

[Hazzy]

I still don't see the guy as sick.  Well he is but not in the sense that you say.  It's not an illness he had, he was just a twisted fuck.  He was obviously an intelligent guy that knew what he was doing from what you could see from his narration, and throughout the film he never showed any remorse for what he did.

Being a twisted fuck is still being sick in the head though. Thats why they are a twisted fuck, because something in their head isn't right. And you gotta ask WHY it isn't right. Was he born that way? In which case its not really his fault, and he needs support and help. And if someone or something fucked him up as a kid then he still needs help and support.

And the fact he's intelligent has got nothing to do with it. You're thinking of mental illness like someone has to be crippled in a wheelchair, drooling down their chin. But depression is an illness and intelligent people can get that, obviously. Stephen Fry, who is about as intelligent as anyone could be, has Bi-Polar disorder.

I think they were justified in doing that "cure" simply because it made him unable to rape, or kill again.  It might be inhumane and you described it as torturing him, but the guy was messed up, and if they didn't do that whose to say he wouldn't have a longer list of victims when he was released?  He was dangerous, so disabling him from doing that is justified I think.  They even let him go free instead of serving his full sentence.  If anything I believe he got off lucky.

Locking him up would've stopped him raping and killing too, at least while he was in jail. That "cure" made him a prisoner inside his own body. He thought he was getting off lucky, but if you were in jail and heard there was a way of getting out early, you would wouldn't you. He didn't know what it involved. And the fact its inhumane hasn't really got anything to do with the fact it's practical or not anyway. It would be practical to clamp his balls down somewhere so he could never move and his balls would be fucked just incase he did escape. But morally it was wrong, to "cure" him like that.

Also I put myself in to the position of the guy whose wife he raped.  If somebody beat me down with a gang, and then raped my wife in front of me I would look for revenge too.  I don't understand how you can sympathise with him for that guy doing that.  He raped his wife and took away her rights, and he just repaid the favour.  He was a monster, so even though it did lead to him attempting to kill himself I don't feel sympathy towards him.  Good riddance.

And again, I don't sympathise with the guy because someone got angry cause he raped their wife. It was wrong for him to rape his wife. But it was just as wrong to torture Alex in return. If the movie had started later and you just saw that guy torturing him with the music, forcing him to kill himself, you'd be thinking he was a sick old fuck. And an Eye for an Eye system of justice gets us no where anyway. Thats how wars start and how they keep going. Its pointless.

But on the other hand I don't agree with hiring his old friends, and them doing what they did.  They were just as fucked up and guilty as he was.  But the old guy in the wheel chair, and them disabling him from having sex or committing violence, totally justified.  It was with good intentions, not sick pleasure which is what he did to his victims.

It was with good intentions, yeah. But that doesn't stop the consequences of them intentions from being shit and morally corrupt.

[Purple Marauder]

I saw this movie a long time ago. But, I didn't sympathize with Alex at all. Watch the first half of that movie (until he goes to jail), then stop. Now, describe that character to me. Everything that happens to him from that point on is just shit he brought on himself. While two wrongs don't make a right and all of that, I'll not feel sorry for a guy because he can no longer be violent. I also could give a crap that he can't listen to Beethoven either. He never once thought about what he was taking from each of his victims. He was fucked up guy and karma is a bitch.

[Hazzy]

But again, if you started the movie half way through and watch the 2nd half you'd think they were all twats for doing what they do to Alex. Whichever half you watch, what they all did wasn't right.

I wanna get Lawman's opinion on all this, cause you're a psychiatric guy aint you? Deals with this kinda patient. I think.

[Illusion]

I've changed my mind about the sickness thing.  Now I've thought about it you're right, otherwise that would make psychiatrists pretty damn pointless.  But I still think it was justified and completely different to what he did.  I agree with what Purps said.  After all the shit he did why would I feel sympathy for him not being physically capable of doing them again?  He showed no remorse in the narration, and there were absolutely no signs of him changing.  In fact when he was reading the bible whilst in prison his favourite bits were the wars and sex.  I'd feel more safe releasing him with that "cure", than some shrink talking to him and deciding whether it's safe or not because the guy was a monster.  They can't risk the safety of anybody else so it was the best choice.

He was lucky to get that cure and be able to get out of prison.  He got to go free with minimal punishment.  He can't listen to one song, beat people, or have sex.  A part from the sex thing that's like a free pass.  Also you can't judge that other guy for doing what he did either, you're in no position to.  If somebody beat you and raped your wife in front of you whilst you were helpless you wouldn't just let it go the next time you saw him, and you're a liar if you say you would.  I don't feel any sympathy for him because I would have done the exact same thing to him.  It's easy to say it's immoral or whatever, but in the end he was a scumbag and you would have reacted similarly.

Right and wrong isn't black and white.  This is one of those shades of grey.

[Hazzy]

Yeah but my thing is that you seem to think its ever justifiable to inflict that kind of torture or pain to a human being. Whoever is doing it, why they're doing it or whatever, it's not fair. I sympathized with the guy when his wife was beat, and when he saw the guy again I could imagine what pain he was going through and I know why he did what he did. But that doesn't make it right or justified. Well, I guess you could say its justified by definition, eye for an eye justice and whatever, but pretty much everything in that film was messed up and wrong. I think that's the point of the film, that people would cheer on the "good guys" getting their revenge when in reality their actions are just as sick and messed up.

[Ethan]

I remember being  creeped out by this movie. When I first watched the movie, I thought the ass got what he deserved. I cheered the old man on and hoped the kid's brain exploded. Now that I'm older and much wiser, I think its both wrong. He should have just kept being locked away. Wether he was mentally ill or not really doesn't matter. I think  it comes down to having a sense of right and wrong.

Wrong being disguised in justice still makes it wrong.

[Lawman]

I have to say i'm intrigued by this thread and as per hazzy's request i'll add my own voice of Psychiatric expertise to the fray

Being a twisted fuck is still being sick in the head though. Thats why they are a twisted fuck, because something in their head isn't right. And you gotta ask WHY it isn't right. Was he born that way? In which case its not really his fault, and he needs support and help. And if someone or something fucked him up as a kid then he still needs help and support.

To say he is "Sick" in terms of Diagnosed mental illness would be innacurate, this guy has in my (and the majority of my collegues) opinion an anti-social personality disorder, which in the strictest sense is NOT a mental illness

An anti social personality disorder can be "diagnosed" following these rules

Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest

Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;

Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;

Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;

Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;

Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;

Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another

If it was illness there would be several reasons for it, misinterpretation of a situation, external visual or auditory hallucinations influencing his behaviour, external stimulii compelling him to act in a particular way
the lack of remorse and impulsive nature of alex added to the absolute disregard for others shows significant traits in place with personality disordered individuals

------------------------------------------------

Stephen Fry, who is about as intelligent as anyone could be, has Bi-Polar disorder.

No he f'n hasn't, Stephen Fry claimed he was Bi-polar, and manic depressive at different times, but he doesn’t have the associated “highs” to balance his low periods, this may indicate periods of depressed mood, but him labelling himself as bi-polar appears to be more for the excuse to be abrupt and eccentric

I think they were justified in doing that "cure" simply because it made him unable to rape, or kill again.  It might be inhumane and you described it as torturing him, but the guy was messed up, and if they didn't do that whose to say he wouldn't have a longer list of victims when he was released?  He was dangerous, so disabling him from doing that is justified I think.  They even let him go free instead of serving his full sentence.  If anything I believe he got off lucky.

Locking him up would've stopped him raping and killing too, at least while he was in jail. That "cure" made him a prisoner inside his own body. He thought he was getting off lucky, but if you were in jail and heard there was a way of getting out early, you would wouldn't you. He didn't know what it involved. And the fact its inhumane hasn't really got anything to do with the fact it's practical or not anyway. It would be practical to clamp his balls down somewhere so he could never move and his balls would be fucked just incase he did escape. But morally it was wrong, to "cure" him like that.

I agree in a fashion, some treatments can appear Inhumane, but ECT (electro Convulsion therapy) or “shock treatment” is viewed as a horrific torture to those who don’t understand it, its easy as a third party to pass judgement on treatments you don’t fully understand

This thread could be re titled mad or bad, the simple fact is, was Alex, Insane or just morally lacking

I’d go with the latter, the behaviour modification may have Re-educated his mind to be less hostile and more morally centred, but you can’t force a conscience to appear, sooner or later Alex would revert to his primal self

[Hazzy]

Maybe he's not officially sick by definition, I meant that for whatever reason, he's not acting normally. And my point was that it's not really his fault he's morally corrupt, just like its not the other people's fault for getting revenge because they were made to feel that way by Alex. Neither actions are right, but that doesn't justify using torture or inhumane means to rectify the actions.

And I thought all that electro shit was bad? I watched a documentary once about this guy who's mum had it because she was paralyzed, but it just completely fucked her up and made her insane. Then it turned out she didn't even have paralysis and it was all in her head or something. Anyway, the point was the shock treatment messed her up. Is that not true?

[Illusion]

So I watched this again last week.  How awesome are the sex scenes?  I feel like we over looked that last time.  They were pretty hot.